Thursday, November 08, 2007

NHL teams by revenue

You know, I was just thinking last night, putting together all that revenue-sharing business, that it was about time for Forbes to release its NHL data based on last season.

And here it is.

More on this for tomorrow.

16 Comments:

At 8:02 PM, November 08, 2007, Blogger Kel said...

While some regular poster will be quick to point out that Canadian team revenues contribute to only 25.5% of overall league revenues, as opposed to the widely reported one-third, I'm really surprised to see that Canadian teams' total operating income surpass the league total, meaning that the combined operating income in the US is negative.

 
At 8:06 PM, November 08, 2007, Blogger Kel said...

By the way, I'm wondering if revenue sharing has been taken into account, and how. For example, does the $138M the Leafs generated before or after contributing to the shared revenue pool? Similarly , does the $65M include revenues from the shared pool they received?

 
At 8:10 PM, November 08, 2007, Blogger James Mirtle said...

I think it is including the revenue-sharing funds, but I don't see that stipulated anywhere.

 
At 8:19 PM, November 08, 2007, Anonymous Rickster said...

These are all just educated guesses and not at all accurate. Forbes doesn't publish their methodology anywhere as far as I can tell, so who knows what they've included or haven't.

For instance, Forbes claims the Preds are worth $143M, but they are being sold for $193M (according to numerous media). That descrepancy shows that these rankings are a waste of time.

 
At 9:51 PM, November 08, 2007, Anonymous Rob said...

I find it interesting that the Blues have such an enormous debt to value of 83% and are losing money. Checketts is certainly not a billionaire who can withstand continued losses.

Bankruptcy could be just around the corner, especially when looking at their last ditch efforts at marketing the team (from the money losing free food promotions to tickets being cut up to 50% off for the remainder of the season).

Bankruptcies break lease agreements, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the Blues next on Balsillie's hit list.

Hamilton Blues ?

 
At 10:10 PM, November 08, 2007, Blogger James Mirtle said...

St. Louis has done very well selling tickets so far this season, but they're going to need to put up a few more wins and make the playoffs to really turn things around.

I don't think you'll ever see them leave that city, however.

 
At 11:53 AM, November 09, 2007, Anonymous Rob said...

Sure the Blues are distributing more tickets, but at what cost ? How many are comps, and how many are actual paid ?

For their next home game against huge rival the Red Wings, they've cut tickets in half. They now range from $7.50 to $50 per ticket. Is this really a renaissance ?

They're lease is also up in 2010-11.

 
At 12:19 PM, November 09, 2007, Anonymous Gerald said...

Rob, in addition to figuring out the difference between "they're" and "their", you should probably know that Blues season tickets are up by more than 50%, and revenues for tickets SOLD for the current 2007-2008 season surpassed the total for the entire 2006-2007 season AS OF OCTOBER 20.

http://blues.nhl.com/team/app?articleid=340726&page=NewsPage&service=page

 
At 12:58 PM, November 09, 2007, Anonymous penaltyshots.ca said...

In defense of Rob, I would say that any time a team cuts ticket prices by half in the NHL it is indeed a Renaissance.

The only thing that should be discussed here is what Kel pointed out: Combined operating income in the US is negative. How much scarier is that if revenue sharing has indeed been taken under account.

 
At 4:58 PM, November 09, 2007, Anonymous Rob said...

So 500 more season tickets then the universally condemned Predators and increasing gate from the Forbes estimated (and league worst) 19MM is cause for celebration Gerald ?

Sort of like being proud of a failing mark of 40 because it beats the previous 35 ! However if you are proud of your club's "success", all the more power to you.


Kel and Penaltyshot.ca both make great points. Two years after Bettman's CBA to save the NHL, the US teams as a whole are unprofitable. Something has gone drastically wrong from what we fans were told, and even with the triple cap the NHL is still in dire straits in so many markets it makes the mind boggle.

Relocating any of these failures in the states to the GTA will only help the league.

 
At 5:12 PM, November 09, 2007, Blogger James Mirtle said...

That may be Rob, but the Blues have historically been one of the better drawing teams in the league and have a long, long tradition of success after joining in the first post-Original Six wave. Only after poor ownership gutted the team's roster and the team finished in last place did fans begin to turn away.

There is no chance that team leaves Missouri.

 
At 10:50 PM, November 09, 2007, Anonymous Gerald said...

Sort of like being proud of a failing mark of 40 because it beats the previous 35 ! However if you are proud of your club's "success", all the more power to you.

Clearly, Rob, you are the protoypical hockey fan who assumes that, if someone jumps to a market's defense, it must be because it is "their" team.

I am a Habs fan, chuckles.

Your reference to the "universally condemned" Predators is a complete nonsequitur, guy. I don't think that anyone with an ounce of sense "condemned" the Preds for selling nearly 10,000 season tickets - not that it bears any relevance to the point here.

Secondly, since you appear to have no business sense, let me fill you in: in any business, when you exceed a revenue stream for an entire year in the first three weeks of the new year, then YES it is cause for celebration. More revenue is good. You're welcome.

In case you forgot, let me remind you of your original UNFOUNDED statement:

Sure the Blues are distributing more tickets, but at what cost ? How many are comps, and how many are actual paid ?

You had no basis for inferring - as you clearly meant to - that the Blues were getting higher attendance through comps and invoking the old "distributed tickets" bull****.

The response that a person in your position that had a set would now be to say "Well, I see that I was wrong to suggest that the Blues are not headed back to their previously solid position by suggesting things like comped tickets and the like. Their financial turnaround is evident. Thanks for the info."

Of course, I doubt you would even come close to that. The proper hockey blog board mentality is to deflect the discussion with irrelevant statements that have nothing to do with the original point, like referencing the Predators season tickets (shakes head).

 
At 12:55 AM, November 10, 2007, Anonymous rob said...

James, I agree that with the current agenda of the owners and Bettman, the chances of the Blues ever leaving St. Louis is highly unlikely - even if/when the team is driven into bankruptcy.

Gerald, it's pretty sad to have to resort to discrediting the messenger instead of the message buddy. Enjoy your Blues while you can !

 
At 1:10 AM, November 10, 2007, Anonymous Gerald said...

Rob, your message was completely discredited above. I am glad you did not disappoint me with your response.

Read above again.

Blues not = "my" blues.

Gerald not = blues fan.

Gerald = Habs fan.

 
At 3:10 AM, November 10, 2007, Anonymous Rob said...

Oh Gerald, do you really believe that season tickets are all paid in full prior to the season ? That's just silly.

They are still a projected revenue stream. Or are you inferring they've taken in this revenue already ?

Do you have actual stats on how many tickets have actually been paid for, and how many have been given our for free to businesses ? Otherwise your inference that the increased announced attendance is valid is discredited, buddy.

The Blues have slightly more value than the last place Predators (according to Forbes), and just slightly more season tickets than them - yet you claim this information is not relevant to how poorly the St. Louis market is performing.

Yes I probably am the prototypical Toronto NHL fan - wondering why it costs so much to be a Leafs supporter while having to prop up dying and dead markets.

Thanks for sharing your business acumen and questioning mine though. You are a true patriot for the Habs, I guess.

We shall see what happens with the Blues in the next three seasons, and when their lease is up after 2010-11.

 
At 10:14 AM, November 10, 2007, Anonymous Gerald said...

Do you have actual stats on how many tickets have actually been paid for, and how many have been given our for free to businesses ? Otherwise your inference that the increased announced attendance is valid is discredited, buddy.

Rob, I made no such reference. I assume you did not read the link, so i will extract the reelvant portion:

revenues for tickets sold for the current 2007-2008 season surpassed the total for the entire 2006-2007 season.

Revenue. R-e-v-e-n-u-e. I guess you figure that you were arguing the same old argument that everyone argues, with tickets sold vs comps, etc. No. Please follow - I was referencing revenue.

The Blues have slightly more value than the last place Predators (according to Forbes), and just slightly more season tickets than them - yet you claim this information is not relevant to how poorly the St. Louis market is performing.

If you cannot see the logical disconnect between that and the topic, I cannot help you. QED, sir.

wondering why it costs so much to be a Leafs supporter while having to prop up dying and dead markets.

If you think that revenue sharing is in any way connected to the price of tickets (and, since you are seemingly not a businessman, the true financial supporter of MLSE, I highly doubt "you" pay anything), please don't make me laugh.

Thanks for sharing your business acumen and questioning mine though. You are a true patriot for the Habs, I guess.

No problem, although "questioning" your business acumen is not quite accurate. IMO, it is pretty clear that you have none in this regard. As for your second sentence, you continue to miss the point. The team that one roots for is irrelevant to the analysis of NHL business issues.

Again - revenue. Rev-en-ue.

 

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